Minister Mchunu

Mr Adams showed messages during a meeting purportedly received from Minister Mchunu or Mr Cedric Nkabinde from Lieutenant General Mkhwanazi of the PKTT, which Ramsamy did not read or find interesting and returned the phone.

“I recall that during the meeting Mr Adams showed us messages that he had received from either Minister Mchunu directly or from Mr Cedric Nkabinde. ... These messages were allegedly from Lieutenant General Mkhwanazi from the PKTT. I did not read the messages. If frankly was not interested. And I just handed the phone back to Mr Adams.”

Mr Adams said the messages threatened to arrest Minister Mchunu if PKTT were shut down on 6 January 2025.

“Mr Adams said that the messages were Lieutenant General Mkhwanazi threatening to arrest Minister Mchunu if the PKTT were shut down.”

Advocate Johnson cannot recall having met with the Minister (Minister Mchunu) to discuss matters related to PKTT or disbandment during the period from 31 December to April 2025.

“No.”

Minister Mchunu called a meeting with Advocate Johnson and Head of DPCI about a criminal allegation unrelated to PKTT, and Johnson informed the Minister he reports to the Minister of Justice and asked to be excused.

“Minister Mchunu called myself and the Head of the D P C I to a meeting and there was a matter that he wanted to raise. It had nothing to do with the PKTT. In that meeting, I informed the Minister that unfortunately I report to the Minister of Justice and that this matter, if it had to be dealt with, can it please be dealt with by General Lebeya and then I asked if I could be excused and they carried on with the matter.”

Advocate Johnson cannot remember the exact date of the meeting with Minister Mchunu but indicates it is around 21 or 25 January 2025.

“I honestly cannot remember the dates.”

Advocate Johnson did not dispute the date given (around 21 or 25 January 2025) for the meeting with Minister Mchunu after PKTT disbandment but cannot recall the exact date.

“What I am saying is I cannot dispute your date because I cannot recall the date.”

Advocate Johnson states no discussion of PKTT took place in his presence at the meeting with Minister Mchunu.

“Not in my presence.”

Advocate Johnson cannot remember discussing PKTT with Minister Mchunu at all.

“Yes, I cannot remember discussing the PKTT with the Minister.”

ADV JOHNSON was not aware of a complaint laid with the Minister at the time it was made or its referral to the police.

“You are not aware that this complaint was also being laid with the Minister at the time, Minister Mchunu, and in turn he was referring to the police. No, not at all.”

Mr Mogotsi had a discussion with Minister Mchunu around December-January 2025 about whether a person alleged to be a kingpin in the North West had been arrested or not.

“Because at a certain point, Mr Mogotsi had a discussion with Minister Mchunu about whether a person has been arrested or not and whether an arrest has been made...the discussion was about an alleged kingpin in the North West.”