Mr Maumela

The SIU referred the Tembisa Hospital investigation in all its forms to the DPCI in or around 2020.

“Th e Te m b i s a h o s p i t a l m a t t e r, i n a l l o f i t s f o r m s , i n h o w e v e r m a n y l e g s o f i n v e s t i g a t i o n i t h a s , w h o m e v e r t h e p e r s o n s a n d e n t i t i e s o f i n t e r e s t a r e , h a d b e e n r e f e r r e d a r o u n d a b o u t 2 0 2 0 o r... b y t h e S I U t o t h e D P C I .”

IDAC does not hold or handle the Maumela / Tembisa Hospital matter, as it falls under the jurisdiction of the DPCI.

“C a n I s a y o n e m o r e t i m e , w e d o n o t h a v e t h e M a u m e l a m a t t e r.”

Mr Carrim promised to provide audited or unaudited financial statements and explanations for his companies, but has not yet done so.

“an undertaking that he would provide us with a copy of an agreement or a draft agreement between himself and companies of Mr Maumela, and also communications between himself and Mr Carrim ... thus far, we have received no response to that either”

Mr Mogotsi deliberately lied about a meeting with Maumela and Suleimani that never took place to engineer a postponement of Mr Carrim's testimony.

“he lied when he said there was such a meeting ... I did this deliberately to encourage him to postpone Suleiman's testimony”

Mr Chaskalson requested a series of documents from Mr Carrim related to agreements and account details concerning his business dealings.

“We asked at the end of the hearing yesterday for a series of documents from Mr Carrim. The one was a two-page agreement with Mr Maumela in relation to the mining venture. The one was a draft agreement that Ziggy had with Medicare 24. Then there were the details of the accounts and to instruct that Mr Matlala should pay Tameez not Ziggy. And lastly, we wanted to hear back from him after he consulted with his attorneys in relation to accessing his WhatsApps from 2024-2025 with Mr Mogotsian and Mr Matlala.”

Mr Maumela wanted Mr Matlala to pay him money and pressured Mr Carrim to make the payment instead of paying directly himself.

“He said, look, you need to help me. You need to pay this money. I am under pressure. I need to pay him this money.”

The payment from Mr Matlala to Mr Maumela was arranged such that Mr Maumela was paid through intermediaries (Mr Carrim), not directly from Mr Matlala.

“the arrangement was between them. And once Mr Matlala ...”

Mr Matlala sent WhatsApp messages to Mr Maumela about voice calls and entry codes to Zimbali Estate, indicating knowledge of a meeting with General Cele, but Mr Carrim did not know about this meeting.

“Mr Matlala WhatsApp'd Mr Maumela your exchanges, saying that you would call at 12, it seems that they knew that Mr Matlala was likely to be meeting with General Cele at the time. I knew nothing about this meeting.”

Mr Carrim repeatedly stated he did not know why Mr Matlala sent screenshots and visitor entrance codes to Zimbali Estate.

“No, I do not know why he was sending Mr Maumela my screenshots... I do not know why he was sending them to Zimbali... I have no idea why these were sent.”

Mr Maumela put pressure on Mr Carrim to pay another R13 million to him to get good standing for the next payment.

“in order for him to make me or force me to pay, he said to me, there is another R13 million going to be paid. So please, if you can pay this... and I will see you good on the next payment.”

Mr Maumela instructed that payments to him must come via Mr Carrim, as per instructions from Mr Matlala.

“According to him, he said that was the instructions from Mr Matlala that the payment will come via me.”

Mr Matlala insisted on a payment being made to Mr Maumela without providing a clear explanation.

“He would just be insistent. He would say, please, you just have to do this. He would not even give a reason.”

Mr Carrim had suspicions about the payment method because Mr Matlala should have paid directly rather than using him as an intermediary.

“The suspicion was that why would he not pay directly? Why would he want to pay me?”

Mr Maumela was paid R500 and R250 as part of a payment scheme under pressure from Mr Matlala, and Mr Carrim was scared to not comply due to press reports and safety concerns.

“I paid Mr Maumela the 500 and the 250 principally because you were scared not to comply with what Mr Matlala was telling you to do? Yes, I was counsel.”

Mr Carrim was not initially informed that Mr Maumela was a business associate of Mr Matlala, despite reading articles about the allegations involving them.

“At that point he did not disclose that to me ... I saw articles but there was no direct link between them ... all you knew is what you had read in the press about them.”

Mr Maumela admitted to having a business relationship with Mr Matlala but did not want to introduce Mr Carrim to Mr Matlala.

“He then said to me, yes, we are. So, I asked him... He said, look, I did not want to introduce you to Mr Matlala.”

Mr Carrim acknowledges that Mr Matlala knew Mr Maumela but was kept separate from him purposely.

“He also played to me as if he did not know that me and Mr Maumela are friends.”

Mr Matlala copied his WhatsApp chat with Mr Carrim to Mr Maumela without Mr Carrim's knowledge or consent.

“He sent a screenshot of that chat to Mr Maumela ... he is copying his chat with you to Mr Maumela.”

Mr Carrim has no idea why Mr Matlala would copy his chats and pass them on to Mr Maumela and has never done so before.

“I have no idea why he would do that ... I do not know why I would take my chats and pass them over to Mr Maumela.”

There was an arrangement where Mr Matlala needed to pay Mr Maumela money; the exact nature of the money (borrowed or owed) is unclear.

“Mr Matlala, he asked to borrow money from Mr Maumela. I do not know what it was exactly. But according to him, Mr Matlala needed to pay him. Either money is owed or money is borrowed.”